Friday, August 05, 2005
Reap what you sow
I apologize for the lack of Photo Friday... but after what happened yesterday I am simply not in the mood to publish something frivolous. Maybe I'll post P.F. on Sunday... we'll see.
Yesterday evening Natan Eden Zeda (his name and memory should be obliterated), an IDF soldier who was AWOL from his unit since June, murdered four Arabs on a bus and wounded many more before being killed by a (justifiably angry) mob.
In the past I have posted about the need for people to speak out loudly and denounce acts of Jewish extremism, but on a quick tour around the Internet and the blogosphere this morning I see precious little of this.
What this animal did was unthinkable. Dressed in a uniform he no longer had the right to wear and using a weapon that he no longer had the right to carry, he slaughtered and maimed as many innocent people as he could.
Spokespeople from The Jewish Legion, a far right
militant terrorist group based in the town to which Zada had recently moved, acted as official apologists for this horrible crime by echoing many of the same worn excuses used by people who excuse the acts of Arab terrorists.
There is no possible excuse for this criminal act and it does immeasurable harm to to Israel's standing in the eyes of the world... not to mention the cleanliness of our national soul.
I know that in the coming days the right wing of the Israeli political spectrum will make a few perfunctory statements and fall silent. Their crime will be not seizing the opportunity to use this as an example of what can happen when unrestrained political and religious rhetoric are allowed to continue unchecked.
The left wing will surely assume a posture of moral superiority in the wake of this event without once stopping to consider that they too are culpable. The lack of even the smallest attempt at moderation and civility in Israeli political discourse is at least partly to blame.
You cannot continually use language to dehumanize and vilify people without having the weak-minded among us begin to believe that some lives are less valuable than others... and then act accordingly.
If the people who are capable of nuanced thinking paint everyone who does not think like them as 'the enemy' (and much more disgusting and hateful titles), then they can't act surprised and shake their fingers accusingly when people who lack intellectual subtlety believe them.
Yesterday's events were a tragedy on so many levels that I don't even know where to begin to grieve.
I'm warning people now that I am not interested in a 'balanced discussion' of this matter and I will not tolerate justifications of any kind in my presence. This animal acted in my name... and yours. And the only thing that will begin to wash the blood from our hands is for EVERYONE to finally take ownership of the irresponsible, hateful, words with which we describe our political and religious opponents.
The 'enemy' are the terrorists and the armed factions that dispatch them on their terrible missions. To imply that all Arab civilians are legitimate targets and that there are no such things as Arab non-combatants is to legitimize the rationale of the very people who send monsters to murder Israeli civilians.
Posted by David Bogner on August 5, 2005 | Permalink
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» My Response to Yesterday's Terror Attack from Israellycool
Tracked on Aug 5, 2005 5:00:05 PM
» I have been Suitably Chastised from Somewhere on A1A...
He's right, of course. David Bognor is right in pointing out the paucity of posts in the Zionist leaning blogosphere condemning the Israeli Jewish terrorist who murdered 4 Israeli Arabs. As a rule I don't like being told to write... [Read More]
Tracked on Aug 5, 2005 7:32:29 PM
» my thoughts on last week's murders from A Current Window
In Reap what you sow, Treppenwitz admonishes some of the Israeli bloggers for not discussing Natan Eden Zeda's murders of four Israeli Arabs on a bus in Shfaram last week. I didn't do a poll of how many bloggers did relate to it, but I know I didn... [Read More]
Tracked on Aug 7, 2005 11:37:05 PM
David, You have said it all. It was good to read and absorb. It was, indeed, a horrible thing, as murder and terror always are. Comments like yours will help people around the world to see this event for what it was, a sick criminal act carried out by an individual and not a representation of the people or government of Israel. Thank you. Nicole
Posted by: nrg | Aug 5, 2005 11:58:35 AM
Thank you David for stating what is true. My biggest problem with the news reports in English is that they refer to him as an "Israeli Soldier". Makor Rishon made it clear that he was an Israeli Army Deserter."
Posted by: Safranit | Aug 5, 2005 12:22:53 PM
nrg... Unfortunately, we do not get to pick and choose who the rest of the world sees as our represntatives. FOr better or worse this individual will join Yigal Amir, Baruch Goldstein and other dark chapters in our history to judge us as a people. The only thing that will carry any weight on the other side of the scales is how we react to such acts.
Safranit... Being an Israeli and a Jew is not something that can be taken off like a uniform. The fact that he was a deserter was a technicality that the world will not respect (nor should they). Calling him a deserter does not free any of us of the collective responsibility of creating such a monster.
Posted by: David | Aug 5, 2005 12:40:03 PM
I think you eloquently and succinctly made your point - certainly I agree that terrorist behaviour is not (and never will be) acceptable and should be denounced by all, no matter what their political views are. Though you have every right to be angry about this, I think communication between people of different viewpoints is essential, and hope you might rethink your comment: "I'm warning people now that I am not interested in a 'balanced discussion' of this matter"
Of course, you don't have to entertain open arguments here on Treppenwitz, but in the same way that I would like people of all religions/political views to listen to your arguments, we should pay the same courtesy. (IMHO)
P.S. Very much appreciated your post on this, as it didn't make the news here at all.
Posted by: zemirah | Aug 5, 2005 1:10:27 PM
David, I agree that you can't pick and chose who the world sees as your representatives, but you can help influence that choice by stating, as you have, your anger and disgust at the act of someone who you will not allow to act on your behalf. Every Israeli who makes that statement will help to tip the scales. We who read this will engage in conversations throughout our weekend with others who will in turn speak to their circles, and perhaps the word will spread that this was not sanctioned and applauded by Israelis, but that they are as equally disgusted as the rest of the world at the innocent loss of lives. I will at least make sure that anyone in Oslo who dares to make a critical comment in my presence will hear of your post, be referred to it and get an earfull to think on.
Posted by: nrg | Aug 5, 2005 1:36:27 PM
This morning I went out to get a bagel and coffee and picked up the Jerusalem Post. So I finally found out what the Israeli news people on the radio were saying. (I had understood only enough to know someone had been shooting at someone/ something.) What a nightmarish act of violence. It's horrifying. I hope those who want peace and pray for peace will not be deterred.
Posted by: Mirty | Aug 5, 2005 2:57:29 PM
I am so sorry. I commend you for your entry. A terrorist is a terrorist.
Posted by: JC | Aug 5, 2005 3:31:23 PM
David, going through the news this morning I couldn’t help have a chill down my spine every time I read the phrase “Jewish Terrorist” – It just doesn’t sound right!! I’ve come to love Israel very much, something many Jews and non-Jews alike find peculiar or suspicious coming from a non-Jew like myself since apparently I have no connection to this Land – I strongly believe in the system that founded the State of Israel and wouldn’t want to believe that this system or any other Judaic system or law grants any Jew the right to intentionally take the life of another innocent being in the name of revenge, regardless of the circumstance that triggers the intention and with this I want to believe there’s no justification to this act.
In my never-ending unsuccessful quest to travel to the Holy Land I’ve been disappointed by many in Israel but Natan Eden Zeda sums up all my disappointment in this time and age.
Posted by: kakarizz | Aug 5, 2005 3:49:52 PM
I think Sharon spoke out unequivocally against it. But maybe he's not what you mean by "the right". The conservative blogs I read criticized the murders early and clearly, including Little Green Footballs. If the Israeli right didn't do this, then they're definitely a different animal than American conservatives...
Also, given that Israel doesn't have the death penalty, I'm delighted he was killed by the mob.
Posted by: Doctor Bean | Aug 5, 2005 4:51:18 PM
The only article I read about this yesterday - my internet is out at home - failed to mention that the victims were Arabs. In retrospect, I find that fascinating. I assumed he was just a Charles Whitman type who snapped. This rather changes the story...
zemirah: David doesn't need to allow discussion of anything he doesn't see fit, in his own space. If you want to see the killings written about as 'fair play,' you can do it on your own. That's how blogging works.
Posted by: Tanya | Aug 5, 2005 5:35:39 PM
Zemirah... The reason I put the words 'balanced discussion' in scare quotes is that this has become code speak for equivocation. For instance when an Arab commits an act of terror there are many voices from around the world that urge a 'balanced discussion' of what could drive a person to commit such an act. The underlying message in any 'balanced discussion' is that there could possible be a plausible excuse for the behavior... or at least a positive outcome as a result of it. That is the sort of nonsense I was warning against because I might very will resort to violence if someone were to attempt to excuse this inexcusable act in my presence.
nrg... I won't hold you to such a promise, however noble the sentiment that prompted it. Taking on all the Israel-haters in Oslo is far too daunting a task for one person.
Mirty... The repercussions of this act will be felt for a long time to come. Peace is too much to hope for right now... I'd settle for a lack of open warfare.
Kakarizz... I wish I could tell you that the term terrorist was misused in these reports... but it is perfectly correct. I am ashamed that there are voices on the far right who have sworn to continue with such actions... and that there are voices on the far left who now point to religious Jews as the true danger to peace in the region.
Doctor Bean... The more I read about this the more I cringe. I hate to admit it but I too am glad he was killed. I'm surprised that the police tried to hold off the mob as long as they did. If this had been an Arab terrorist he would have been dispatched with a bullet to the head by the first security official on the scene... this brand of terrorist deserved no less.
Tanya... Yesterday's reports were rather confused in terms of who killed whom. You have to admit that most newsroom editors would want to check and recheck their sources before running with a 'Jewish terrorist kills Arab civilians on a bus' story. Unfortunately, now that we have broken this ground, it will no longer be considered a rare occurrence and the reports (even when not true) will run front page above the fold (while the retraction will ran the next day on the bottom of page 13. As to Zemirah's comment, I think that came from not understanding specifically what I was forbidding. I took no offense from her request. Nice to know you have my back, though. :-)
Posted by: David | Aug 5, 2005 5:49:04 PM
I considered writing about what happened yesterday, but I was unable to muster a coherent thought. I was, and am still, too angry, upset and sickened. Thank you for giving voice to my sentiments.
Posted by: AmyS | Aug 5, 2005 6:05:32 PM
This horrible act of terrorism is so shameful. And it's terrible that it was done in our name. It doesn't matter that he was a deserter. The people on that bus didn't know that. All they saw was (what looked like) an Israeli Border Patrolman open fire on them. it's no wonder the insuing Mob threw stones at the Police who came to help - they didn't know if the police had come to help or hurt!
This is so sad. There is no excuse for such acts of violence.
Posted by: Chavi | Aug 5, 2005 6:06:24 PM
I think that yesterday's incident highlights a situation in Israel where a large group of fanatical individuals are in posession of a lot of weopons. At what point does it seem crazy that in a modern democratic country everywhere you look there are automatic weopons. I am sure that the majority of people with fingers on the trigger are normal, sane, happy people. What about the others? I wonder what my son will think of me when he sees the bulge on my hip and asks "Daddy are going to kill somebody with that?"
Hopefully this Shabbat will bring Shalom
Posted by: Daniel | Aug 5, 2005 6:15:36 PM
...and he wasn't the first - as long as Baruch Goldsteins and Yig'al Amirs together with their fanatic instructors and admirers are among our people and spread their injustified hate, mutual understanding will remain subject to hard struggles. Sad, very sad.
Thank you for today's post - and may it help the not-so-in-the-know to understand that "religious" does not necessarily equal "fanatic" (you'd be surprised how many weren't aware of it).
Posted by: mademoiselle a. | Aug 5, 2005 7:32:09 PM
So very wrong on so many levels.
Posted by: Jack | Aug 5, 2005 7:52:26 PM
To quote Jabotinsky, "We do not have to apologize for anything. We are a people as all other peoples; we do not have any intentions to be better than the rest. As one of the first conditions for equality we demand the right to have our own villains, exactly as other people have them. Yes, we do have provocateurs and draft dodgers, and it is even strange that we have so few of them under current conditions. Other people have also these kind of "good," and, in addition, they have embezzlers, and pogrom-makers, and torturers--so what-- the neighbors live and are not ashamed..." ("Instead of Excessive Apology", written in 1911 as a response to the blood libel in Russia, translated by Boris Shusteff, found at http://www.csuohio.edu/tagar/boris.htm, original in Russian at http://www.il4u.org.il/library/zhabotinsky/12.html).
David, I understand that you're going to say that for Jews this is different, that Jews are responsible for each other, however, the State as it is right now is secular and wants to be like the Nations. So I think, Jabotinsky's words are more applicable here. Once again, I am not apologizing for the actions of that individual, however, to blame a segment of a population because of an action of a Jewish criminal is ridiculous.
And by the way, why is it not mentioned the the killer was lynched by the Arabs, and that police had extreme difficulties extricating the body from the "mourners"? Once again, no apologies.
Posted by: Greg T | Aug 5, 2005 9:21:59 PM
David, thanks for your eloquent post.
Posted by: timna | Aug 5, 2005 10:27:32 PM
I could not agree more. Brilliant post, thank you very much.
Posted by: Alice (in Texas) | Aug 6, 2005 12:36:03 AM
I've been thinking about this horrible incident since yesterday, and find myself unable to write about it. No matter how sincere my denunciation of this *individual* act of violence will be, I fear the repercussions of drawing too much attention to it. Unfortunately, when it comes to Israel, whatever happens is not judged fairly, and this one act, horrific enough as it is, will likely be blown out of proportion and used to bash Israel... And I honestly don't want to hear any of such sentiments right now. I feel bad enough about what happened as it is.
Posted by: Irina | Aug 6, 2005 1:49:16 AM
I was speaking to someone here (in Jerusalem) about this and he wondered how long it would take for Israel to knock down the shooter's house like the IDF does for Palestinian bombers.
Posted by: John Boy | Aug 6, 2005 8:18:41 AM
Great post and I support your position totally.
Posted by: AbbaGav | Aug 7, 2005 12:04:22 AM
Hi, I denounced these horrible murders on my blog and in comments on several other blogs. I agree with you - this is an act of terror and to call it anything else is simply engaging in the same kind of double-speak that the P.A. and many on the left often engage in when confronted with terrorist attacks committed by Palestinians.
Posted by: Rebecca | Aug 7, 2005 4:57:37 AM
AmyS... In the days and weeks to come there will continue to be a need for Israelis and Jews of very stripe to give voice to their outrage over this act of Jewish terrorism. It need not be the knee-jerk variety I offered, nor the deeply introspective sort that is slowly starting to pop up here and there around the Jewish blogosphere. There simply must be a sustained discussion of this event so that there can be no cause for anyone to say that large segments of the Jewish community tacitly endorsed his actions with their silence. Likewise, those who respect our opinions and who are still forming opinions of their own must know that there cannot be any 'but other the other hand' with this sort of thing. Even in times of war there are clear limits to the way one conducts oneself towards those that are perceived as the enemy. These limits cannot be dictated or defined by those on the other side of the conflict.
Chavi... You have made an important point. When we allow offices and institutions within Israeli society that are supposed to be guided by rule of law and the purity of Jewish values... then we give credence to the worst accusations of our enemies
Daniel... Your first statement is (in my opinion) dead wrong. By necessity, a huge swath of the Israeli population has access to weapons (because of active and reserve military service... proximity to very dangerous areas and work within the public and private security network. However a relatively small portion of the population has become radicalized to the point where this access to weapons poses a danger to society. The answer is not excluding people from the army (which is one of the few places where people from all segments of Israeli society get to meet and work together) or to take away weapons from people who live or work in areas /vocations where guns are necessary. The solution is to do within our own society what we have been demanding of the Arabs: Namely disarm, and if necessary prosecute militias and hate groups who espouse violence and enforce the laws relating to such people that are already on the books.
mademoiselle a. ... I got an email from a dear friend in the US who called Baruch Goldstein and Yig'al Amir "Jewish Heroes", and objected strongly to my use of the phrase "his name and memory should be obliterated' since that is supposed to be reserved for our enemies... not our brothers. I am torn between the genuine fondness I have for this person and the horror I feel when I read (and re-read) his words. I appreciate the fact that he emailed me privately instead of posting his feeling publicly... but it still frightens me that an otherwise sensitive, intelligent person can harbor such dangerous ideas. I can only thank G-d that he has chosen to remain in a place where such ideas remain theoretical by necessity.
Jack... I haven't even begun to parse the smaller issues involved (such as how his body should be treated (i.e. where should he be allowed to be buried)... and who else should share responsibility for his crime (it seems there was a long line of blunders with the army and social workers who dropped the ball when they were warned by his parents that he might act violently. I also fee terrible for his family, but my sympathy wanes when I see his father giving interviews flanked by Kahane supporters, and when his brother responds with statements justifying his actions because he was distraught over the disengagement. Yes, you have a right to bury your son and begin the grieving process. But your loss and the relative lack of sympathy from the government and public to your plight does not justify such statements or associations.
Greg T... You are dangerously close to making a 'balanced discussion' of the events. Once a person commits such an act, all discussion of their treatment in the aftermath are of no interest to me. I don't know or care if he was already handcuffed when he was attacked by the crowd or not. When you adopt the values of 'the enemy', then you risk being subjected to their brand of justice. Just as Arab terrorist are made, not born... so too, Jewish terrorists do not exist in a vacuum. It is not ridiculous to blame his actions on a segment of our society when I hear that segment lauding his actions after the fact (and vowing to continue to encourage such attacks). This terrorist was built and dispatched by an ideological cancer that lives in our society... and to ignore the cause of the sickness is to risk it's spread. Being 'like the rest of the nations' means Israel must hold itself to the same minimal standards of conduct, morality and force of law that we demand of others in their relations to Israel.
Timna... Thank you for saying so, but it was an inarticulate scream.... not an eloquent post.
Alice... I'm not feeling very smart just now as I read the morning headlines about how various segments of Israeli society see Thursday's event with such different eyes. I honestly fear for the future.
Irina... You are right. This will be added to many acts (real or imagined) for which Jews and Israelis will be held responsible. Trying to explain it away will only add fuel to the arguments of those who hate us. The proper response is to deal with the root causes (most notably dangerous extremists in our midst) and express moral outrage at anyone who tries to explain away this attack as somehow understandable or justified. It is neither. Now that we have our own country there is no downside to "drawing too much attention" to such an act. On the contrary, to not draw proper attention to is gives credence to the people who theorize that this is somehow acceptable.
John Boy... In my present state of mind I would volunteer to drive the bulldozer. I'm relieved that we no longer have a policy of doing this to the families of Arab terrorists... but if we still did, it would only be fair to apply the policy uniformly.
AbbaGav...I would be interested to see/read your feelings on the events now that a few days have passed.
Rebecca... I'm glad you posted about this and I agree with many of the points you made. But to lay this only at the feet of "extremists in the settler movement" is a bit unfair. The anti-disengagement platform is simply the latest banner under which the Kahane camp has rallied. Long before Israel decided to disengage from Gaza the Kahane Chai (Kach) movement was very vocal about supporting physical attacks on Arabs. But within the latest political fracas there has been horribly irresponsible language used by both extremes of the argument over disengagement. The intention of both sides has been to vilify and dehumanize their opponents so that any means necessary can be used against them. Without such hateful rhetoric from the far left I doubt that the few bad actors among the police would have treated their fellow Israelis with such brutality. So, to simply call this a problem within the disengagement camp is like saying that the steak you ate this afternoon gave you the heart-attack this evening. You need to look at what is 'consumed' over the course of a lifetime!
Posted by: David | Aug 7, 2005 10:41:18 AM
AbbaGav... I apologize. I didn't scroll down far enough. It seems you were one of the earlier voices of reason on the scene. Well said.
Posted by: David | Aug 7, 2005 12:24:02 PM
David, I really appreciate having your blog to turn to for an insightful account of this event. It's a window into this story that I simply would not have from any other source.
I agree with every word you've written, with one exception. With respect, I must object to your characterization of the perpetrator as an "animal". It is sad but true that human beings are capable of profound evil. I agree without reservation that the man was a terrorist; but even terrorists are human beings.
I hope it's clear despite the above remark that I am not in any way attempting to justify his deed.
I appreciate your discussion of the collective responsibility of Israelis for this deed. As an outsider, I would not dare hold the nation even partly responsible for his act. But insiders like yourselves are in a different position. It is a healthy impulse to scrutinize your society to see what forces were at work in shaping his twisted mind, and what adjustments need to be made to prevent similar tragedies in future.
Posted by: Q | Aug 7, 2005 3:38:53 PM
Q... There comes a time when a human being acts in such a way that they join the lower animals whose lives have no weight when balanced against the lives of humans. Engaging in an act of savagery such as the one that took place on Thursday would certainly qualify. I'm glad he was killed, and am only sorry that it wasn't possible to do so earlier in the attack.
Posted by: David | Aug 7, 2005 6:01:01 PM
David, as a left-wing person I have nothing but respect for your words and your honesty.
Posted by: Jonathan Edelstein | Aug 7, 2005 8:13:49 PM
David, I'll take on Oslo anyday...it's just in my nature to speak out when I believe strongly in something. I make no promises that I can change the opinions of Israeli-critical Oslo-ites, but it will never stop me from speaking my mind! By the way, papers here were NOT critical, it was reported as an act of terror carried out by an individual. That he was a deserter was also mentioned, so they seem to have gotten the facts way up here.
Posted by: nrg | Aug 8, 2005 10:23:26 AM
That is the big difference between Islamic Fundamentalists and all others.
You won't see Jews dancing in the streets of America, happily cheering about dead arabs and this Jewish Terrorists actions or any Jewish Terrorists actions. No payments will be sent to his family. No one will call him a martyr. He is no better than any other terrorist. What makes this different is us. We ARE better because we don't support or celebrate terror.
The Egel Nest
Posted by: Bradley Egel | Aug 8, 2005 10:37:25 AM
Jonathan... While I'm flattered by the compliment, I am longing for people to start thinking about themselves less as 'left' or 'right'... and more as concerned, thinking people. If you disagree with someone that claims only to be concerned and professes to having thought about a problem for some time, you may not agree with that person's solution but you might be a bit slower to immediately discount what he/she has to say. My new resolution is to no longer identify myself as right left or center... but rather that I am simply a concerned, thinking member of society. Anyone who listens to my thoughts on a particular issue will quickly be able to use his/her own label... but at least they will have listened.
nrg... Good luck with that. It wasn't so long ago that Israel was Scandinavia's darling and kibbutzim were overflowing with blond, blue-eyed volunteers. The sea-change was so sudden, and so dramatic that I don't know quite how the worldview of an entire region changed overnight!
Bradley... Unfortunately, there is a small but vocal group of extremists here who are doing exactly what you describe. They have labeled this terrorist as a martyr and vowed to avenge his death (not to mention continue his work).
Posted by: David | Aug 8, 2005 12:22:41 PM
I read this post as I was waiting for Blogger to decide whether it'd publish my 2 lines on the subject. Again, so good there's a David, I was so mad and disgusted I couldn't even talk abt it. Should have linked to you and send people over but wasn't thinking. You say it all.
Posted by: Lioness | Aug 8, 2005 1:30:39 PM
Lioness... You would be amazed (and horrified) at what a range of opinions there are here on even something like this (even more than in your beautifully created math table)! Something that is so clearly and totally wrong is already being parsed into smaller and smaller shades of gray... until finally any semblance of a lesson will be lost.
Posted by: David | Aug 8, 2005 2:15:19 PM
Oh I know, I kept reading the newspapers. Truthfully, the whole thing is beyond me. Not even grief is the universal enabler, I truly can't understand it. And sadly, when these things happen I find myself thinking "One down." And even more sad, they always take so many innocent people w them. Just... blah.
Posted by: Lioness | Aug 8, 2005 4:05:24 PM
Lioness... I always picture the look on their faces when they suddenly find themselves standing in front of the True Judge and have to answer for their actions. If only there were some way to remind them of that just a few seconds earlier.
Posted by: David | Aug 8, 2005 9:18:10 PM
I am longing for people to start thinking about themselves less as 'left' or 'right'... and more as concerned, thinking people.
I understand why you want this, but I think that left and right nevertheless exist. I have opinions on the occupation, the settlements, economic and social questions, civil rights, religion-state separation and other issues that are in line with the parties labeling themselves as "left-wing" and opposed to the parties that consider themselves "right-wing." I know that people who consider themselves of the left are more likely to agree with my opinions and those on the right are more likely to disagree.
I don't think it's useful to paper over the distinctions between right and left. Instead, it's important for right and left to respect each other's views and listen to each other rather than talking down to one another or holding stereotyped views. There are some figures on the right, like Eli Moyal, for whom I have great respect because they obviously want to build a common future for Israelis. There are others on the left, like Beilin, who I don't respect because they condescend to others and add fuel to the fire rather than working together to solve Israel's problems. This is true even though I may disagree with some of Moyal's views and agree with many of Beilin's. What's necessary is for each of us to recognize the common value of others as human beings despite the existence of political differences.
But I agree with the other things you have said here. Both right and left are culpable for the state of Israeli political discourse now - both have participated for various reasons in the delegitimizing of the state and the glorification of refusal. We are all culpable.
Posted by: Jonathan Edelstein | Aug 8, 2005 11:07:34 PM
Jonathan... I will be posting about this. Stay tuned.
Posted by: David | Aug 9, 2005 9:24:55 AM