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Thursday, November 17, 2005
Photo Friday (Vol. XLVI) ['1000 words' edition]
Modern photojournalism has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that pictures can, and often do, lie.
For many years now, the American and European public have been treated to a very careful selection of images from my part of the world. These images have completely swayed a large part of the world into thinking that we are land-grabbing, militaristic monsters.
For instance, the overwhelming majority of Israelis pictured in the western media have been soldiers in full battle gear. These images are usually juxtaposed against those of Palestinian women, children and elderly. The kinds of pictures that almost guarantee a photographer's work prominent placement are those containing both of these misleading demographic cues (e.g. soldiers in a tank near a boy on a donkey, Soldier holding M16 near a Palestinian woman, etc.)
If one were to think about this trend, it would strike the critical mind as odd that Israel seems to be populated almost entirely by active duty soldiers, and that there seem to be almost no adult Palestinian men. Unfortunately, when perusing newspapers and magazines, few of us have our critical minds engaged. Rather, we tend to let headlines, photographs and captions wash over us... leaving behind the ideas and messages that the photographers and editors intend.
This isn't to say that photos are an enitirely untrustworthy medium. On the contrary, there is an important aspect to actually seeing something (as opposed to just reading about it) that helps people internalize a message.
Today's Photo Friday will (hopefully) provide a view of a 'settlement' (mine) that many in the press would prefer you not see.
Efrat (the town where I live) is not some windswept outpost with a rag-tag collection of caravans on a hilltop. It is a large town of almost 10,000 people with two large shopping centers, several fully subscribed schools, apartment buildings, town houses and private homes.
The land on which Efrat sits is a combination of 'national land' (land for which there was no documented owner that was claimed by the State of Israel) and privately purchased land that was acquired from the original owners in legally binding transactions.
The town itself is shaped like a long string of sausages stretched across a number of hills. The reason for this odd shape is that this was the way the land grant/purchase was shaped. Here is a look at one small section of the town (perhaps 1/8th of the total area:
The cultivated area you see in the foreground is all Arab land. This isn't to say that it was cultivated before Efrat came into existence (I have seen photographic proof that it wasn't), but here in the middle east, one can claim and maintain ownership of unclaimed land (land that has no deed and which has not been cultivated for three years) simply by using it.
The pattern that has invariably occurred around each settlement is that the Palestinians wait to see where the fence/border is for the settlement and then they start plowing the fields right up to that line.
Efrat has always sought to maintain good relations with the neighboring villages, so whenever someone has come with a claim (documented or otherwise) to unused land on the periphery of the town, they have been allowed to cultivate it.
To demonstrate how our municipality has bent over backwards to accommodate the Arabs, the following is a picture of the largest park that sits right in the center of our town:
At the top of the park is a rectangle of land that a local Arab claims (even though he waited until well after Efrat was several years into development to do so) and he has refused to sell (which is his right). Therefore each year he and his donkey come into town... he plows his field (he doesn't plant anything) and he leaves. This is enough for him to retain ownership.
My question to all the people who claim that the settlers stole the land from the Palestinians is as follows: If we were going to steal the land, wouldn't we steal a nice convenient chunk of it and not have Arab fields in the middle of our town parks?
Also, there are several sections of the town that have large tracts of Arab land that cut right through our neighborhoods. Here are some pictures:
So again, If we were the land-grabbers everyone says we are... why wouldn't we make our lives easier and make our town borders a nice safe, secure oval?
The reason is that we aren't the ones grabbing land.
It is also worth pointing out that a week or two ago there were a bunch of teens who went out to begin settling a neighboring hill that is owned by Efrat and which has been part of the municipal plan since the town was founded 22 years ago. The police and the army came and threw them off the hill quite roughly and even took a few people to jail.
There is not one settlement in Judea or Samaria (the west bank) that was built on land stolen from the Arabs. There is not one settlement built on the ruins of an abandoned Arab village. However, there are countless Israei towns and cities inside the green line that can not make this claim (including large parts of Tel Aviv).
So I guess what I'm asking when I post these pictures is for you to think critically about what you are reading in the press about Jewish settlers stealing Arab land and making land grabs for more. If there is any expansion of settlements going on, it is on land that is either state owned or privately owned by Jews.
There is only one party in the present conflict grabbing land... and it isn't us.
Shabbat Shalom.
Posted by David Bogner on November 17, 2005 | Permalink
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Comments
Such vital information ... and absolutely unknown outside Israel. We had a very knowledgable man as our guide in Israel. He is an observant Jew. We went places Americans never go in Israel. We saw your town and a a couple others like it. But we did not get the information you have provided here.
Even more revealing ... my wifes family is wealthy and have been supporting Isreal for three generations and THEY have never heard this.
Posted by: Scott | Nov 18, 2005 6:22:19 PM
why is this post saying it posted on the 17th when it JUSt went up a little while ago? I SO hate waiting for the Photo Friday post!
This was great post, by the way... and it was a nice learning experience, but aren't you preaching to the choir a bit?
Posted by: val | Nov 18, 2005 6:29:37 PM
What a beautiful area. When I get over there, I'm definitely going to have to check it out :)
Posted by: Shayna | Nov 18, 2005 6:32:51 PM
Can you recommend an objective book that describes the history of modern Israel? When I was at Hebrew U, we read Sachar. Does anyone have any feedback regarding his book, A History of Israel?
Posted by: jaime | Nov 18, 2005 7:11:31 PM
Great post and pics, David. Like jaime, I too would appreciate suggestions regarding any balanced, rational account of the history of Israel, from you or anyone in the Treppenwitz crowd.
Posted by: Sandra (AR) | Nov 18, 2005 7:46:24 PM
Music to my ears.
Is this view becoming mainstream among Israelis. Meaning, is the left now agreeing that Isreal has the land it has fairly and has bent over backwards to protect Arab rights? If so, when will there be an Israeli consensus that security needs to happen on Israeli terms (since there is no one on the other side that can speak for Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc..) and the Arabs should be left to whatever fate they make for themselves?
Posted by: Doctor Bean | Nov 18, 2005 8:32:00 PM
I agree, in theory, that you're preaching to the choir, but I suspect this is one of those "expanding the global consciousness thru google" posts. Beautiful pictures. I know I always say this, but wow, what a view.
...and that there seem to be almost no adult Palestinian men
If I bite my tongue any harder, it may fall off.
Posted by: Tanya | Nov 18, 2005 8:42:41 PM
You said: "here in the middle east, one can claim and maintain ownership of unclaimed land (land that has no deed and which has not been cultivated for three years) simply by using it." Do you know what the basis of this law is -Jordanian, Turkish, some holdover from the British? Just curious.
In the same spirit, there is a wonderful new blog, by a Swedish woman, a convert to Islam who is married to a Palestinian and recently moved to Gaza. The blog is completely apolitical, just an account of her day to day life and adjustment to the middle east. She is also an excellent photographer - the images may surprise you.
The address is:http://www.living-in-gaza.blogspot.com/
Please please please though - there are many right wingers who visit this blog and I request that any comments on her blog be respectful it is a personal blog, not a political one.
Posted by: lisoosh | Nov 18, 2005 11:34:53 PM
OK, I'll admit it. I'm not part of the choir and I had to think a little bit before posting but I feel I have to point out that land doesn't have to be built on or cultivated to feel part of "home". We all have a view, or an area we like to visit that we feel is a part of our "space" and that belongs to us on some level. Lots of Jews in the diaspora feel that way about Israel, is it so surprising that Arabs who live in the area, frequently for many generations feel the same way?
My husbands family live in Qiryat Menachem in Jerusalem, right on the edge and he grew up there. A new neighbourhood was built on the next hill a few years ago (I forget the name) and each time we visit, all he talks about is how it has ruined the area, about the walks he used to take there and the berries they would pick. That hill is a part of him and to him it has been ruined forever. This is without all the additional politics and the culture clash of the settlements.
Just a thought.
Posted by: lisoosh | Nov 19, 2005 12:54:17 AM
lisoosh: "We all have a view, or an area we like to visit that we feel is a part of our "space" and that belongs to us on some level."
Sure. I know exactly what you mean. I frequently, for example, go out to my balcony and shout out my claim to all of North America. I just don't expect anyone to listen to me.
Posted by: Doctor Bean | Nov 19, 2005 1:14:47 AM
David, Actually as Jewish farmers we did something similar in the Western Negev in the early 80s. We only had to cultivate the land to claim it -- this was when land was being redistributed to people as Yamit was being evacuated.
What I remember most strongly was that we ran out of wheat seeds and just kept the planters running back and forth across huge fields anyway because it was important that the land appear to be planted. Some pretty strange laws about land ownership in this corner of the world.
Posted by: timna | Nov 19, 2005 3:43:57 AM
At the risk of pouring gas on a fire that has more than enough fuel, I think you paint "the press" with the same broad, stereotypical brushstrokes that you dislike being utilized to define you, your culture and your geographical region.
I will admit that there are those in the media that are not worthy of the term "jounalist," that bring shame to our profession. But for the wide and general part, journalists, photojournalists such as myself in particular, are honest, hardworking, dedicated professionals who walk a thin line between a myriad of goals, passions and persuits.
Most of us are artists at heart, both written and photo journalists. We strive to paint, in either words or photographs or both, that which tears apart our community and that which binds it together--with "our community" ranging anywhere from our small hometown neighborhood to the world-wide "community" of humanity.
We do so under the mulptiple constraints of public demand, the sense and sensibilities of editors, publishers and mass media gatekeepers, as well as the conflicting confines of trying to write and shoot objectively when we, as human beings,clearly are going to have emotional,rational and moral stands of one strength or another on anything we cover.
Please remember that journalism is one of the few careers where practicioners are expected by public opinion to behave contrary to financial considerations in respect of the service we provide.
Newspapers, media outlets, are businessess. We have paychecks to earn, bills to pay, stockholders to keep happy. To do so, we have to sell papers.
In that very idea lies a conundrum. People buy drama, they plunk down their dime for pictures of "soldiers in tanks next to boys on donkeys", but spend their dime on coffee and donuts when the front page sports a photo of two people sitting down to coffee in friendship.
Yet those same people that will not spend their cash on "good news" are often those that are the first and loudest to condemn the press for "glorifying war" or for "showing the wrong aspect" of a culture, people or country.
Per definition we cover "news" .....and it is the people, the public...in essence our "customers"... that define what is News.
I do not claim, as a profession, that we are innocents. Journalism has its flaws, its shortcomings, and its room for improvement. But I find it an easy scapegoat for the flaws of the world.
Something's wrong? Blame it on the press...it must be their fault. We saw it, we showed it, we must be at fault for it?
True, perhaps there are too many pictures of soldiers and guns and tanks, but we did not put those soldiers and tanks and guns there.
Just something to think about :~)
Jessica
Posted by: Jessica | Nov 19, 2005 6:59:41 AM
Doctor Bean - not really a good example, as this is exactly what the West did when it first "discovered" North America.
As it happens, land use is disputed in the States all the time - look at the recent battle over building a stadium in Manhattan, and that was about the quality of life of current residents. There is an excellent "My Turn" essay in the Nov 14th edition of Newsweek detailing the feelings of a young man from the Appalachians as the area his family lived in for generations has been aggressively developed, including his anger that land is appropriated under the rules of "eminent domain" and is then later sold to developers who build huge swaths of condos. He says and I quote: "Though native Appalachians like me are gradually being outnumbered by newcomers, we remain tied to the land in a way outsiders will never understand. It provides for us physically, socially, spiritually and emotionally. Without it, we lose our cultural identity and, ultimately, ourselves." Why aren't the Arabs entitled to feel the same way? And no, I'm not justifying violence, in any way shape or form. Violence against civilians, by anyone, is never justified.
If there was a law in the states that allowed "unused" land to be taken after three years can you even imagine the sheer scale of the ensuing land grab. It would be unprecedented and an unprecedented environmental disaster.
Posted by: lisoosh | Nov 19, 2005 6:19:10 PM
Scott... It all boils down to where you look for your information/news, and how critically you examine those sources. I have yet to read a news source (from the right or the left) that didn't have an axe to grind or an agenda to further... so it becomes vital to be able to spot the bias and make allowances for it.
Val... As to the choir question, the answer is yes and no. There are plenty of people who come here who share my views on security issues... but there are also many people who can (and do) feel otherwise. Some of those who disagree with me do so because they interpret the facts on the ground differently than I do. Others simply don't have all the facts. The goal of this photo Friday was to supply information that may not be available to everyone. As to the date on the post... I actually wrote this post Thursday night because I knew Friday would be busy. However I accidentally scheduled it to publish at 5PM instead of 5AM. My bad.
Shayna... I'd be happy to show you around, and you are welcome for a Shabbat whenever you'd like.
Jaime... There are a lot of good books out there filled with important facts and information. The problem is that, like the news, each author has an agenda and makes use of the facts to make his/her own case. If anyone out there would like to make a recommendation, feel free.
Sandra... I'm hoping one of the better informed readers steps up with a recommendations.
Doctor Bean... Israeli Consensus??? Have you been self medicating??? The typical lefty in Tel Aviv has no idea that the settlements were the brain-child of the labor movement under the banner of 'strategic depth' after the 6 day war. Sure, the right wing embraced it and ran with the idea, but even Rabin was instrumental in laying out the framework for settlement activity in the Jordan valley. In fact, Rabin once visited the Lincoln Square Synagogue in Manhattan on a speaking tour back in the 80s and encouraged people to move to the new settlement that had been founded by that synagogue's former Rabbi. The Rabbi's name was Shlomo Riskin... and the name of the settlement was Efrat.
Tanya... It may surprise you, but if you go back and read the few political posts I've written, there are plenty of people commenting from the left. I haven't given up on the idea that I can always learn new things by reading opinions different from my own. I hope people who come here feel likewise.
Lisoosh... I would have to check to make sure, but I have always believed this law to be a holdover from the Turkish/Ottoman rule. I have read this Swedish woman's blog a few times... it is not nearly as apolitical as you suggest. There is nothing wrong with that, but it is important to understand that one can't discuss 'suffering gazans' without forcing the reader to both empathize and cast about for the source of that suffering. She occasionally speaks disparagingly about radical elements (hamas, et al), but she mostly leaves it up to the reader to decide who is at fault. She is not nearly as frank/critical in discussing Palestinian culpability in their present social and economic situation as she is to point the finger none-to-subtly at the Israelis. As to the whole issue of 'feeling 'that land doesn't have to be built on or cultivated to feel part of "home".' ... It is important to point out that the Arab land in and around Efrat is not within line of sight of any Arab village. In order to come and plow the 'owners' have to walk or ride several kilometers each way. Settlers do not set up settlements on the doorsteps of Arab villages, but nearly every settlement is encircled by Arab fields that suddenly came under cultivation after the borders of the settlement were established. It is also important to point out that The state of Israel was established with countless Arab towns, villages and cities in its midst without the need to uproot populations or create Arab-free zones. Those Arabs that left before and during the war of independence did so of their own accord or at the behest of the invading Arab armies.
Doctor Bean... While I have to admit that an evil part of me enjoyed your sarcastic response to Lisoosh... her comment was offered in very respectful and non-confrontational language. Knowing you as I do, I'd like to think that you wouldn't have been quite as direct with her if we were all sitting down over coffee.... or maybe you would have. :-)
Timna... Yes, very strange laws.
Jessica... I was quite careful to say 'many in the press' in order to leave room for the possibility that there are journalists who are not beholden to editorial, financial and political pressures. But as you've pointed out, most of the mainstream media in Israel has demonstrated a strong allegiance to one agenda or another, and has even resigned its position as the 'people's watchdog' when it comes to government abuses against any segment of the population. When you say "Newspapers, media outlets, are businesses..." and go on to explain how journalists have to give people what they want, it scares me how easily you have come around to argue my side of the discussion. The press is supposed to be independent of the influences you've described, but you've described the dangerous affiliations and influences I mentioned. I don't really care that people might not buy a paper if the front cover didn't show a shocking image like a tank next to a boy on a donkey... especially if that image has nothing to do with the reality on the ground. The deliberate use of images to erode sympathy for Israelis has been quite successful. At the same time, many mainstream journalists employ passive verbs like 'died' when talking about Israeli victims of terror or military attacks and active verbs such as 'killed' when talking about Palestinian deaths. This sort of subtle differentiation suggests that the value of one life is not equal to another. Yes, you didn't put the soldiers and guns there to be photographed... but you also don't explain the very good reason that they are forced to risk their lives every day. I once had a conversation with a South American diplomat in Tel Aviv about the 'occupation forces' that were making the lives of every day Palestinians very difficult. We were sitting at a cafe drinking coffee. I asked him if he would feel as comfortable sitting at a crowded cafe in Tel Aviv if those soldiers were not manning the checkpoints and roadblocks. He took a big swallow of coffee and quietly said that he would never eat or drink in a public place if the soldiers weren't there. Yes the idea of searching old ladies, old men and children at checkpoints is degrading and dehumanizing for all involved. But nearly every day the soldiers find those old ladies, old men and children trying to smuggle explosive belts, grenades and guns through the checkpoints. You can't have it both ways!
Lisoosh... Your response to Doctor Bean had its merits, but you have discounted the connection that Jews have had to the land of Israel for far longer than anyone else. Why is that religious and nationalist identity to the land less valid than the Arabs? The overwhelming majority of the Arab population that now lives in the region came here from elsewhere in the wake of the economic opportunity that arose after the Turks lost their stranglehold over the stagnating land. That isn't to say that as newcomers they have no right to feel an attachment to the land... but their attachment seems to always trump the connection the Jews have for the land of Israel. Your point about not condoning violence against civilians to achieve and end, you ignore the fact that this is exactly the systemic answer to any problem the Arabs have. The problem is that they don't want Gaza and the west bank... they have made no secret of the fact that they want it all. The armed struggle against Israeli civilians started long before the 'occupied lands' came under Israeli control. If the Palestinians had led a peaceful campaign for self-determination and statehood from the start they would be celebrating double-digit anniversaries already. However, if Gaza is a model of how the Palestinians deal with self rule, I shudder to think about the day they have their own state.
Posted by: David | Nov 19, 2005 6:51:34 PM
Jessica:
Within the very wording of your "defense" you have confirmed precisely that which is considered odious about much of your profession. You want to be taken seriously, and as an artist, but rather than arguing the merits of news coverage you simultaneously blame both your audience and and the events covered and say "this is the card we were handed, and due to the existing public sentiment, if we want to continue to work, this is the spin which we must continue or people won't buy our product."
News, as defined by the industry is supposed to be the unbiased documentation of events as they occur. News is supposed to be reported as it happens -- if necessary to relate the covered events, news can also include a summary of the proper historical context to help define the current events. This is supposed to be done in an unbiased manner, with information supporting all the sides and perspectives. Any coverage which includes opinion falls under a different category -- it has ceased to be an unbiased presentation of the facts, and by nature is designed to influence the audience. This type of coverage is legitimate, but should not be passed off as NEWS -- and doing so is disengenuous.
Editorial journalism is legitimate as long as the journalist is clear that he/she is presenting opinion along with the facts. Too often, journalists comingle their opinions and only that which they have seen, heard or witnessed, without further investigating what events preceded the moment. The result is a skewed presentation of half-facts which perpetuate a sensationalistic culture.
Many times events are staged with the knowledge that the industry grows lazy. The 24-hour news cycle with the pressure of scoops and exclusives has dictated that getting to press/air first take precedent over fact-checking and veracity. While corrections may be addended later, we all know that they are often overlooked as the hysteria of the next headline grabs the spotlight.
It is this aspect of commercialization of the news with which the discerning public grows weary. Yes, all professions have an element of commercialism to them -- but few other professions have the ability to influence and dominate opinion. Segments of the public beseech you to check your facts -- take the extra time to be certain your reports are accurate. If not, at least have the decency to admit that the coverage is incomplete -- that the journalists personal interests or thesis has driven them to pursue only certain angles.
If the media employed just a modecum of integrity in the decimination of what it gathers, the industry would be under far less public scrutiny.
Posted by: zahava | Nov 19, 2005 7:00:31 PM
David - firstly let me apologize for hogging your blogs comment section, you have every right to call me a blog hog, but I feel that this is an incredible important topic (see what happens when you touch on politics, no matter how lightly).
Secondly - I absolutely defer to you on the topic of Efrat - it is your home and I am not familiar with it so I am quite happy to accept your take on the legal basis of the settlement.
Thirdly - I am well aware that your average settler is not a gun-toting maniac, that unfortunatly a group tends to be identified by the extreme fringe elements rather than by the average. I am even aware that many people thought of as settlers do not in fact live there because of religion or idealogy but because a nice apartment or even house is much cheaper in Givat Zeev or Maaleh Adumim than in Bet HaKerem or Mevasseret.
The following link is a long long long conversation in the comments section of a blog addressing the legal issues surrounding the formation of West Bank settlements. On one side is a Religious Zionist who lays out pretty much the same arguement you do above. On the other side a religious Jew and lawyer (who make Aliyah and lives in Israel) who does not support settlement policy and who argues against, quite effectively, many of the points you laid out above.
Among her arguements are:
Land is frequently taken by the State for "security" under Eminent Domain and then later passed on to private settlements. It is illegal to appropriate private land for private use.
Overly generous interpretations of Ottoman Law of state land following Ottoman land reform that was never properly implemented leading to state takeover of land that was worked by generations of families.
"Talia Sason of the Justice Ministry determined that most of the outposts set up in recent years – in which fewer than 1% of the settlers live but which account for a great deal of land ... – were set up on land grabbed illegally from private owners."
It goes on to mentions specific cases that come before the Israeli courts concerning the Israeli government and some references to international law. Well worth a read as she obviously knows her topic.
www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=6800759&postID=112518591017487263
Posted by: lisoosh | Nov 19, 2005 7:02:42 PM
David - are you sure you are not thinking of a-mother-from-gaza which I agree is rather political and points fingers. The other one talks about visits to parks and the difficulty of assimilation to a different culture and even how rude she finds Gazans.
Posted by: lisoosh | Nov 19, 2005 7:09:40 PM
Lisoosh... First of all, it doesn't cost me anything to have you share your ideas here, and your comments always challenge me think. So please don't apologize. I have made no secret of the fact that there are some radical elements in the settler movement that make me very uncomfortable, and I do not want to be represented by them. But it is important to point out that the kind of debate you are talking about is not about individuals or even settlements... it is about the very legality of Israeli government policy in dealing with the territory captured in '67. The settlement program was a government experiment that was only successful in certain areas (the large settlement blocks). However, the leftist parties and their supporters are behaving as though the settlements were set up against government wishes, and that the settlers are not entitled to be treated fairly if the government wants to change its mind on certain areas. We are not some experiment in a petri dish that can be tossed in the trash if it doesn't work out. The Gaza evacuation was handled exactly that way. The government would not dream of transferring an Arab population, and the international outcry would be universal if they did. But because the transferees were Jews (most of whom were religious) nobody said a word. Instead of treating the Gaza settlers as people who had bravely moved to live on what the government had called the frontier, they were treated at best as squatters, and at worst as criminals. I am content to let wiser legal minds than mine debate the legality of the entire settlement enterprise... but one can't simply ignore the fact that the settlements were set up with government approval and funding. That is why I posted the pictures I did. Within the framework of what is legal and right (for all parties involved), I am comfortable that Efrat has acted in good faith in all its dealings with its neighbors. And yes, I'm sure I got the right blog. She does a wonderful job of giving a human face to the everyday life of Gazans... and she makes no secret of her disdain for the militants. But I can't help reading her with a strong undercurrent of "look what squalor we live in... guess who is responsible for this?" It's possible that I don't have enough distance to read her fairly.
Posted by: David | Nov 19, 2005 7:34:55 PM
I've always said that I don't believe that this conflict is about land.
It is about our right, as Jews, to exist.
Posted by: Rahel | Nov 19, 2005 7:59:45 PM
Oh man!!!!! I didn't think that I would get into such a long drawn out conversation - but I have to admit that I do love the exchange of ideas and the fact that it can remain civil and I have posted here because I have noticed that you are open to opposing viewpoint and I try to do the same thing.
1. You are absolutely right that I neglected Jewish ties to the land. Not because I am unaware of them but because it touches on religion - which is a whole other bag of worms and complicates the conversation, and because you already voiced it so ably. My intention is/was not to draw the whole picture but to present another viewpoint within the framework of a dialog. Whenever I read Palestinian/Activist blogs (which I do in order study their point of view), I also make it a point to defend Israel when I feel it is unfairly attacked or slandered.
2. Your last response, regarding the views of the left, is I feel very interesting and definitely has merit, especially regarding the way in which settlers have become pawns of politics, something I admit I hadn't really focused on until I read through a lot of blogs during disengagement. I think that it is a shame that the bad behaviour of the fringe reflects on the remainder - the blame for which I put squarely on the government and its policies, left or right. That an out of control individual feels that he/she is entitled to throw stones or take pot shots at Arab children going to school or Arab farmers harvesting olives (and it does happen) is bad, but that the government doesn't just arrest him/her as a criminal and eliminate the problem is unconscionable.
My problem has always been with government policy regarding the settlements. We won a war. Rather than just annex the area, declare it part of Israel, apply Israeli law, allow the inhabitants full rights and allow Israelis (who yes feel attached to the land) to move there within proper laws the government has persued a sideways approach - a way to place "facts on the ground", appropriate land and increase the Jewish population without dealing with the issue of the people who lived there. It is a short sighted policy doomed to failure that has caused immeasurable suffering to both groups of people. That is why I am not in favor of the settlement policy of the government - it is a nudge nudge wink wink form of foreign and domestic policy - you do our dirty work for us and we won't stop you. I always think that the Left views it the same way - it is interesting that you see it differently.
You said that "The problem is that they don't want Gaza and the west bank... they have made no secret of the fact that they want it all." A lot of Palestinians and certainly the most militant do, yes it is frightening and yes we have an obligation to defend ourselves. I don't speak for Palestinian Arabs but I do follow a fair amount of their dialogue and I can at least offer you the hope that there is considerable discussion among them of the need to accept the existance of Israel and move on. In every poll the large majority of Palestinians do not support terrorism. The question is how to neutralize the gun toters who do. A good economic situation in the West Bank and Gaza would do a lot to bring that about.
I left the toughest to last.
You stated: "The overwhelming majority of the Arab population that now lives in the region came here from elsewhere in the wake of the economic opportunity that arose after the Turks lost their stranglehold over the stagnating land."
You also stated that:"Those Arabs that left before and during the war of independence did so of their own accord or at the behest of the invading Arab armies."
During my "Zionist" years I believed both statements, now I don't, not totally. Perhaps the best explanation would be by explaining how I became disallusioned. I should make it clear though that I believe that the War of Independance was just that - a war, and we don't need to apologize for winning it. I also believe that those were extraordinary times, that extraordinary things happened, that Israel sometimes did the wrong thing but that in the main the intention was good.
I have in my possession a book about a mans pilgrimage to "the Holy Land" (he was a Christian) written around 1890 - well before the issue of Jewish Aliyah. The book itself is rather boring but what struck me was his discription of the "natives". He walked throughout the country and describes every town and village he comes accross. What amazed me, as someone who grew up with the whole "land without a people" concept was just how many people there were. Towns, villages (usually a gigantic extended family), farms. It just wasn't empty as I had been led to believe, and this book had no anti Jewish agenda - it was just too old. Then later I discovered photographs of the area. Where I had gone to a water park and my kibbutz had a beach - there had stood a town. Not a ramshakle collection of houses, a great big town full of stores and businesses, a slum area and a rich area, a train station. Maybe I had been naive but I was shocked, shocked by how much had just been obliterated. I don't know how many Palestinians moved to the area because of "increased economic activity" but I do have my suspicions that we want it to be more than it is because it makes us feel better. I do know that in existing Arab towns people from other areas are considered "foreigners" even after many generations because the original village was so tight knit. I do know that I love that area with a passion I can't explain but I also feel tremendous sorrow that there were other people, who once called the area home, who must have loved it also. (Call me a wishy washy liberal if you must- I'm not saying we can resurrect those villages, or that we must give land back - but I do feel that we should at least recognize their connection to the land and their grief at losing it).
As for the Arabs voluntarily leaving - I also believed that but now I don't think the situation was that simple. I've read plan Dalet and many of the government papers from that time - those which are available - and there was a rather intense discussion at the time about what to do about a large and mostly hostile population. We know that the Ramle /Lydda area was actively cleared. I've also read many testimonials from Arabs about being forcibly removed. I'm inclined to through away at least 50% as fantasy but in my experience even myths have some nugget of truth. My suspicion is that some left, some ran some fought and suffered a loss and some were forcibly removed. Like I said, it was war, things happen, we don't need to apologize but we don't need to lie to ourselves either.
So ... after hours of typing, what is my opinion? Israel exists. It is a country of approx. 6 million with an infrastructure, a language, a developing culture, native born people and a right to exist and a right to defend its existense. The Arab nations and the Palestinians will just have to accept that. On the other side - the Palestinians, as they call themselves exist, several million of them. We won the territory they inhabit and by holding on to it we have made them our responsibility. We have to make a choice. We can choose to expell them (who really wants to be responsible for that one?) We can absorb them (I don't know anyone who wants to take on that demographic and cultural disaster). Or we can help them to form their own democratic state - use our influence as wisely as possible. They are one of the better educated and least religious Arab populations out there. We need to use this to our advantage while we can and not allow them to slip into extremism any further.
Now - blast away.
David - thank you for the soapbox, I hope you had a nice restful shabbat. I am now going to take my kids to a birthday party.
Posted by: lisoosh | Nov 19, 2005 9:13:47 PM
Sausages? Maybe you live in a sausage. I like to think of my neighborhood more as a strudel...
Posted by: Dave | Nov 19, 2005 11:53:35 PM
David: Shavua tov. I want you to know that my sarcastic response to Lisoosh is exactly what I would have said had she and you been having coffee with me (an entirely pleasant fantasy that I wouldn't mind actualizing some day). The self-deprecating content of the comment (me screaming from the balcony) as well as my smile and my entirely unimpressive physical presence would have made it clear that the comment was meant in humor and not in hostility. In person, I may have actually gotten a laugh!
Lisoosh: Shavua tov. I have absolutely no problem with the European conquest of land from the Native Americans. I have a big problem with their massacre at European hands. There's no question that they were treated unjustly. No nation was ever born that did not conquer land from the people previously living on it. Since typically populations don't surrender their land, this almost always involves war and killing. Again, I'm not defending the biological warfare (infected small pox blankets given to Native Americans) or other systematic attempts to slaughter the Natives – though these incidents have been somewhat magnified by history. But we should all realize that through conquest what was replaced were societies that had not yet discovered the wheel nor the alphabet and what was built was a society that inspired democratic revolutions all over the world ("the shot heard round the world") and is still doing so.
Posted by: Doctor Bean | Nov 20, 2005 5:21:52 AM
Rahel... Without a doubt it seems unreal that at this stage of the game we Jews/Israelis still have to justify our very existence before moving on to try and tackle the more current issues with our neighbors.
Lisoosh... Blast away? I think not. :-)
"I have to admit that I do love the exchange of ideas and the fact that it can remain civil and I have posted here because I have noticed that you are open to opposing viewpoint..." An excellent example of how to completely charm me. :-)
It may be my liberal American upbringing or the fact that I was raised in a home where my parents and their friends had long animated political discussions in my presence, but the one thing I have learned from watching people 'exchange ideas' here in Israel is that very few ideas are actually exchanged. What passes for discussion is actually two overlapping monologues (and none-too-civil monologues at that). I hope people don't think of what goes on here at treppenwitz as a debate, since hopefully the idea is not to score points. I try to gently remind people that there are very few black & white absolutes in history or politics... and a little honest discussion helps me (and hopefully others) to at least conceive of the concept of gray.
Now, with that said I have a couple of quick points to make after reading your last comment (no blasting, I promise):
1. The Jewish connection to the land, even among those who do not express that connection in religious terms, is a very strong and important one. I have no problem allowing someone to bring up emotional ties that the Arabs may have to the land, whether old or new. But it seems unfair that so many people who build their case for Palestinian self-determination on the 'ties to the land' argument for them, completely discount the same idea for Jews. I'm glad to hear that we agree on this point because it is one of those things that one either 'gets' or 'doesn't get'.
2. Many of the tactics used by the more radical elements of the anti-disengagement camp were borrowed directly from the Histadrut. Amir Peretz has frequently brought the country to a standstill with road blockages, tire-burning and even acts of sabotage. While I don't feel these tactics are particularly helpful or healthy in a modern democracy, the disparity in the way the right was treated when employing such tactics (as opposed to the way the left has mostly gotten a pass) revealed a basic prejudice that few people will freely admit... even to themselves.
You mentioned an issue that is starting to get more press... that of Jewish settlers attacking Arabs. I am always distressed to read about such accounts, whether they be uprooting olive trees, throwing stones or even shooting. However, on many occasions such reports have turned out to be unfounded or outright fabrications. I know for a fact that such attacks do take place, and therein lies the germ of many false accusations. I haven't been tracking them carefully, but just in the last 6 months there have been numerous reports of Palestinians being shot or stabbed by settlers... olive groves being burned or uprooted by settlers... and even reports of shooting by settlers. I mention these three kinds of reports because on many occasions these reports have turned out to be either Palestinian on Palestinian (clan violence) crime, or outright fabrications. The settlers are every bit as handy a 'boogeyman' as the Palestinians are to us. The police are usually very quick to investigate these crimes, but unfortunately the retractions/corrections are seldom newsworthy. But of course you are correct... even one such attack that can honestly be attributed to Jews is one too many.
3. I agree that many of the present problems could have been alleviated if the government had been more decisive in finalizing the status of the lands they captured in the six day war. But we can't go back in time... so we are left with an ever-shifting policy in the territories. I wouldn't go so far as to say it is a nudge-nudge-wink-wink situation. Perhaps it appears that way since the policies change so frequently. But unlike the more populated coastal plain, much of Judea and Samaria really were/are completely unpopulated/undeveloped which gave the government a free hand in parcelling out settlement land when strategic depth was still perceived as vital. Once missile technology made strategic depth sort of moot, the government still had to try to make some sense (i.e. connect the dots in an attempt to assure contiguity between the patchwork of settlements) from what it had created. Therefore, it continued to allow limited expansion of existing settlements and in some cases, new settlements.
4. I don't subscribe to the absolutism of much of the Zionist narrative either. Obviously the land wasn't empty when the Jews began to return in large numbers. There were towns, villages, and even a few cities. But in terms of actual population numbers, both Jewish and Arab population figures begin a steep climb from the late 1800s on, and this can be attributed largely to both Jewish and Arab immigration in the wake of the Zionist enterprise. I also don't suggest that all the Arabs fled (or were told to leave) during the war of independence. As you say, it was a war and there were obviously hostile (or even inconvenient) populations that were forcibly displaced. This happens in war. Looking at the standard of living that Israeli Arabs enjoy today, I don't feel that they have suffered any more than a similar minority population in a war zone elsewhere in the world. You also make an important point about Arab testimony from that period. Culturally the Arabs are very comfortable with manufacturing convenient testimony. There is no shame in doing so... and in Arab culture one is considered a bit of a dolt if they don't say the most expedient thing sometimes. But you are correct that some inconvenient/hostile populations were forcibly displaced.
5. Your last point is (IMHO) the most important. One can't simply ignore the population of an area that is under our control. But that doesn't mean that we have to subjugate our rights for theirs either. I worry that absorbing them is more of a security threat than a demographic one... but that is a matter of opinion. I think it is insane that the Palestinians alone among the refugees of the world, have had their own UN refugee organization created to handle their needs. Also, unlike any other refugee population in the world, the definition of a Palestinian refugee is not limited to those who were displaced by the wars in the regions... but rather include all of their descendants as well, no matter where in the world they may live! By this way of calculating the number of Palestinian refugees, and simultaneously making the right of return/compensation for all refugees the cornerstone of their demands, they have effectively assured themselves of an impasse on which to hang their failure to come to terms with 'the Zionist entity'. I really try to see the gray in every discussion, but I can't imagine any other country in the world giving in to such unrealistic demands.
Dave... Over there in Ramat Beit Lechem the neighborhood is, in fact, shaped like a strudel. I stand corrected. :-)
Doctor Bean... I assumed as much, but sometimes it is best to throw a gentle reminder out there to assure that all subsequent discussion stays civil. since I have much more history with you I figured you wouldn't mind if I tossed the ball at you this time. In recent months there have been a few relative newcomers to treppenwitz who have stated their positions a bit more strongly than one who is genuinely interested in hearing what others have to say. Because they were new it was a bit more difficult to subtly suggest to them that we don't behave that way here. I'm actually glad that you gave me a convenient excuse to send a reminder without having to worry about giving offense. Oh, and yes... after some thought I can totally picture you saying exactly what you did even if we were all seated in a cafe. :-)
Posted by: David | Nov 20, 2005 10:50:46 AM
Dave - after my overlong diatribe, I loved the strudel, short and sweet.
Dr. Bean. - In my world I'm known to be a bit sarcastic myself.
I do though have a problem with assigning value to a society based on discoveries, language, government or the size of its cities. For all of the good things the US has exported there is plenty of bad. Britney Spears springs to mind. Technically, Britain was a democracy before the US (yes, I know that it is a Republic) and Greece was playing around with it a couple thousand years ago. We will never know what Native American culture might have produced or inspired if it had been opened up and changed gradually.
David - it never ceases to amaze me how it is possible to agree on so much, point by point and yet be on different sides of the fence. I wonder how much has to do with emotions and gut instinct - probably a lot more than any of us want to admit. Even if two sides find they have to agree to disagree, discussion does at least temper the tone and the emotion of a disagreement.
1. Yup we agree on that one.
2. Haven't followed labor movement but if the same tactics are covered differently then yes you are right, and I can see how that would make the settler movement feel defensive and alienated.
As to aggressive settler tactics. I believe that any population - settler, Arab, Israeli, American, Brit has its good and bad elements, it is unrealistic to expect otherwise. There is a lot of evidence, photographic and video though that the bad behaviour and aggression of this minority is not prosecuted as it should be. It's bad for relations, bad PR and goes against rule of law, something I fervently believe in.
3. No, can't change history, but a decision needs to be made and a definitive policy set. The longer it takes it larger the population in the Territories gets and the more potential for more violence. We have to encourage economic development there (well off people tend to have more to lose and be less militant) and do what we can to support any fledgling democracy to head off a theocracy. Yes there is the danger of appearing to give in to terrorism, but when things have been quiet we haven't done anything either. From what I've seen and heard, a lot of Palestinians believe (I dispute it when I can) that Israel plans on carrying out genocide. Those people feel they have nothing to lose. A lot of Israelis believe that the Palestinians plan the same thing. These belief systems have become a self fulfilling prophecy and we have to escape from this cycle somehow - all I can see is mutual destruction otherwise.
4. I'm glad you don't subscribe to an overly simplistic narrative. It does concern me though when people repeat it as so many people do believe it.
A lot of testimony is flawed and it seems that a lot of historians have an agenda also - it is a pity that I don't have the Arabic to interview locals who remember that era to satisfy my own thirst for knowledge. I don't subscribe to the Arab "myth" of that time any more than the Zionist, on the other hand I am not willing to discount everything.
I did work with an Israeli Arab from a village in the Haifa area who was doing his PHd in Biochemistry at Hebrew U. He had some very interesting insights. He was also very proud of his village - he felt that it had moved from pretty primitive to modern in one generation and would point out what a difficult transition that was and what a huge cultural adjustment they had undergone. You would probably enjoy talking to him.
5. I agree with you 100% and have made much the same argument to foreign "acitivists" who want the best for the Palestinians (OK) but no real plan or realistic suggestions (not OK). But it doesn't solve the problem. The problem isn't going away (big hostile population witn no basic rights). We have to define a solution on our own terms and move with it. I actually have no problem with the wall (though do have a problem with the placement in some locations) as it essentially forms a border for a prospective state. The question is - will we help them to become an ally, or are we developing an ever growing enemy? Regardless of their demands - people who have a measure of self determination and feel culturally and economically secure tend to be pretty placid. I think it is worth working for - do we really have a choice?
Posted by: lisoosh | Nov 20, 2005 6:46:23 PM
American democracy was partially inspired by Native systems of democratic/representational rule, including that of the Hodenoshoni (Iroquois).
In other parts of the Americas, the Maya had writing. The Inca had writing, and a huge empire that they ruled even without wheeled vehicles.
Posted by: Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) | Nov 20, 2005 8:13:10 PM
Steg: I didn't say without writing. I said without an alphabet.
Lisoosh: "I do though have a problem with assigning value to a society based on discoveries, language, government or the size of its cities." Well, most on the left have a problem with saying that any society is better or worse than any other. Relativism is the only absolute. If that is not your case, you can let me know on what bases you do assign value to societies.
Posted by: Doctor Bean | Nov 20, 2005 11:08:35 PM
How is an alphabet better than other systems of writing? The Chinese don't have an alphabet, and have been a center of civilization for thousands of years.
Posted by: Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) | Nov 21, 2005 2:20:13 AM
You're right, but the Chinese made up for the lack of an alphabet because they had the wheel and they had Chinese food. Yum!
Posted by: Doctor Bean | Nov 21, 2005 5:08:10 PM
Steg...glad you spoke up. I was thinking the exact same thing.
Posted by: Jaime | Nov 21, 2005 7:49:03 PM
I'm a lefty then - I don't see any reason why one society needs to be seen as better than another - unless it's members are comforted by sense of superiority. As my husband ends to say "B'taam vereach en ma litvaceach".
Posted by: lisoosh | Nov 21, 2005 8:10:28 PM
Lisoosh: Societies don't need to be better or worse, they just are. Sudan, which has slavery, is worse than France, which does not. If that's a stretch for you, then we have too little common ground to learn from each other. I get no sense of superiority from this comparison, since I can't stand France. (And I haven't tried to attribute your opinions to psychological weaknesses. I get my only sense of superiority when I get a chuckle out of Trep!) We need to be able to make comparisons if we are to decide whom to model.
Finally, unless you translate for your husband, his point will be lost on me.
Posted by: Doctor Bean | Nov 22, 2005 5:27:39 AM
Dr. Bean - I don't think we disagree, I think perhaps we are not having the same discussion, which I will take as a challenge to explain myself better, at the risk of turning this comments section into "lisoosh ruminates".
First: translation, "In taste and scent, there is nothing to argue about" (sounds better in hebrew) - Israeli version of "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder".
Now - the following I formulated in the shower (where it came out great) so if I lose my train of thought, bear with me. It also has a lot to do with the use of language which may allow you to say that it is just "semantics" to which I would argue that language is incredibly important and has great power - just ask any marketer, salesperson or pollster.
My feeling is that when we assign "value" to a society, when we say that one is better or worse than another, we attempt to quantify something which is based on what we normally identify as our morals otherwise known as gut instinct (I believe placed there by our "society") otherwise known as emotion. Emotion is something that I don't think can be quantified.
If you were to ask me whether I think France or Sudan is better or worse I couldn't give you an answer. I can however say that France far better mirrors my personal set of values than Sudan, it is a society I identify with more and am more comfortable with.
Sudan however is an interesting choice of example as is slavery.
We identify slavery as bad. Why? Is it the loss of freedom, sympathy for slaves (emotion) or economy?
Economically, slavery may be thought of as a good thing - it certainly helped the US to grow during a critical period, slavery is very good for the slaveholders.
Loss of freedom is a very big thing - but as a society we accept that there have to be limits on freedom, this is why we have laws, and we are willing to remove the freedom of those who disagree with our values/morals (criminals).
Sympathy for the slaves lifestyle may be another reason but what if the slaves are housed in luxury accomodation, had eight weeks vacation a year, provided excellent health care and food and access to all mod cons they could personally want? That would afford them a lifestyle better than many free agents in the West working for minimum wage in a poor economy.
We accept that slavery goes against our values but it includes a great many assumtions about the conditions that exist over a large number of variables and I am willing to bet that even if slaves were good for the economy, didn't really have that much greater loss of freedom than the average and enjoyed a luxury lifestyle we would still be against it. Why? Emotion, gut instinct, the feeling that it is "wrong".
The other reason that Sudan is an interesting choice is that it is really two societies (Arab Moslem Urban and Black Moslem Agrarian) within one geopolitical package. A lot of the problems it suffers and the things that we think of as bad (slavery, genocide[not many would argue that one]) come as a result of one society placing a value on another - the Arab Moslems deem the Black Moslems as having less or no value. So many actions by one group against another worldwide have been based on the assignation of a societies value or worth due to economics, religion, development, skin colour and on and on that I think that its use is irresponsible. Designating one society as worse than another opens the door to and in a way gives permission for all sorts of abuses.
I have heard a lot of Right wing commentators who will describe liberals as "wishy washy" and "touchy feely" and "unwilling to make a judgement" and there is some merit to this. I would however argue that the willingness to assign value and to judge is just an attempt to quantify and justify a base emotion. Rather than say "I'm commiting this country to war and sending young people to their deaths because I am not comfortable with that country and I don't like it's leader" which would be a lot more honest in most cases, we tie ourselves in knots with "reasons" that have very little to do with reason. How about these other statements:
"Homosexuality is wrong" or "I am not comfortable with homosexuals and don't want them near me".
"Government oversight is bad for business" or "I don't want anyone telling me what to do"
"Universal healthcare leads to socialized medicine which is a disaster" or "I can afford great healthcare and don't want to be responsible for someone elses costs - I don't care what happens to them and I don't care what happens to state hospitals who treat the indegent".
Need I go on?
Posted by: Lisoosh | Nov 22, 2005 7:09:38 PM
Lisoosh: Say it strong, say it loud "I'm a reletivist, and I'm proud."
I think we do disagree and I think we see the world fundamentally differently. If you think that all values are personal (i.e. none objective or transcendental) and the strongest statement you can make about Sudan is "France far better mirrors my personal set of values than Sudan" then you're just a relativist. There IS such a thing as logic. Arguments to reason CAN be made. The fact that all humans are subjective and emotional creatures doesn't mean that all opinions are equally valid nor that all things are equally good.
I was infatuated with existentialism (which is more or less the same thing) for a few years in high school and college after reading too much Sartre and Camus. I got over it. It's a dead end. There's nowhere to go from there.
I'll let you have the last word, because there's nowhere to go from here. I'll read your response and leave it at that.
Posted by: Doctor Bean | Nov 22, 2005 8:27:03 PM
Doctor Bean & Lisoosh... You each raised points that had never occured to me. Thank you both for sharing ideas instead of trying to score points. Anyone who can read this thread and say they haven't learned anything isn't being completely honest with themselves.
Posted by: David | Nov 22, 2005 8:44:05 PM
Dr. Bean: :"I'm a relativist and I'm proud".
I'd love to hear your reasoning on specific issues sometime but not here.
Thought I was using logic (which I aced in).
Don't believe all opinions are equal and don't see where I said so.
Never cared for Sartre, never read Camus. Do like Einstein.
David - Way to stroke an ego.
Thanks for the honor of having the last word:
WORD!!!!
Posted by: lisoosh | Nov 22, 2005 9:21:33 PM
:-)
Posted by: David | Nov 22, 2005 10:33:04 PM












