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Monday, August 28, 2006
I can't believe I'm dragging Star Trek into this!
OK, I'll lay my cards on the table. It won't be pretty, but it's better than what you're probably thinking based on the title of this post.
No, I'm not a Trekker, Trekkie, or any variant thereof.
Truth be told I used to watch the original show because of the scantily-clad women that Captain Kirk got to kiss on seemingly every episode. When the later incarnations of the show came on the air I saw great promise in the totally hot casting of the the Chief of Security (Tasha Yar, played by Denise Crosby) and the Empath Counselor (Deanna Troi, played by Marina Sirtis). But Crosby quickly left the show and Sirtis proved to have little to offer in the way of on-screen romantic fireworks beyond a low-cut uniform.
So there it is. I'm a pig... but not a Trekkie pig. OK?
But because most of you seemed to have taken the central idea in yesterday's post and run with it in a completely unexpected direction... I feel like a follow up is warranted. To do this I'd like to use a handy devise that Gene Roddenberry (the creator of Star Trek) employed with great success in his scripts: Taking taboo cultural problems that exist on earth and making them 'safe' for discussion by assigning them to fictional aliens.
The most 'problematic' race dealt with in the early Star Trek episodes were the Klingons. They were warlike, tribal, belligerent and their motivation was completely beyond the understanding of Star fleet officers. Sound familiar?
Initially the Klingon were a handy catch-all enemy (like the Romulans) against whom Kirk and the Enterprise could consistently wear the white hat. But in later, more socially-sophisticated versions of the show we see that the vast cultural gulf between Klingon culture and the norms of the Star Fleet Federation seem to have been mostly bridged because Klingons are now counted among the officers and crew of Star Fleet ships. It might be worth thinking about how that happened and apply the lessons here.
The Klingons were a handy hook on which to hang the terrestrial cultures we perceived as hopelessly warlike and bent on conquering us. But it wasn't until much later that the script writers got around to dealing with them as a soluble problem and a potentially approachable race of people with whom relations were possible.
Another race that was initially meant to serve as an ongoing threat to the Federation were the Ferengi (not coincidentally the Arabic word for Western traders). Although the Ferengi quickly lost their real sinister role and became almost comic caricatures of the most loathsome human traits of avarice and dishonesty, they remained an interesting discussion point on how cultures that assigned completely different values to process and result could not only coexist... but have ongoing relations once they understood each-other's ground rules.
I think I am pretty safe in saying that to most westerners, Arab/Muslim cultural norms are as inscrutable and unapproachable as those found in the Klingon and Ferengi cultures. In fact, most of the negative traits westerners point to as reasons that Western and Levantine culture will never be able to peacefully co-exist are found in these two fictional alien races.
That having been said...
In my responses to yesterday's comments I tried to bring people back from the semi-hysterical place they instinctively wanted to run with the topic of cultural relativism. For the sake of clarity here are the ten main points I tried to make:
1. A hint to my mindset when I wrote the post can be summed up as: Western vs. Levantine definitions of 'Intellectual honesty' and 'fair play'.
2. The post wasn't meant as a condemnation of cheating. It was meant to draw attention to the huge chasm that exists in the cultural values that actually assign moral value to - and define - things like cheating, lying and shame.
3. In my post I assigned no single motivation to the way the Arab had 'solved' the puzzle... I just pointed out a cultural acceptance of certain shortcuts as expedient to reaching the desired solution.
4. One of the reasons polygraphs work is that most westerners have a physiological reaction to potentially being caught in a lie. We sweat... our heart races... our breathing changes. However if there is no corresponding social taboo to most kinds of lying in Arab cultures, there is no shame to measure. In such a culture, the spoken word (such as the claim by an Imam that Jews have poisoned a village's well or blown up the Dome of the Rock) can be absolutely true while it is being said... and yet the next day when all the villagers who drank from the 'poisoned well' are alive and well and the Dome of the Rock still stands in Jerusalem, there are absolutely no repercussions. Quite simply it was true when he said it but now it's not. In such a culture not only is there no shame associated with most lies, but one is considered a bit of an idiot if he/she doesn't say the most expedient thing to achieve a specific aim/goal. What this young man did with the puzzle was a form of lying (according to my standards), but his openness about how he did it proves that he was completely unaware that he had broken any social barrier or rule.
5. Being process AND goal oriented is of value only so long as all people trying to reach the same goal agree on the basic ground rules. If this had been a hedge maze I suspect the young Arab man would have pushed his way through the branches rather than try to find the 'correct' path to the end. Again, if we can agree that he wouldn't have seen such action as cheating, we can't blame him... only wonder at how two such different cultures can pursue larger, more important goals when the two sides don't understand each-other's rules and processes.
6. Think about how you react when there is a piguah and CNN puts on a talking head from Israel and a talking head from the PA. Doesn't it make your blood boil when you realize that one talking head is stating cold hard facts and the other is saying whatever he/she thinks will advance his/her cause (without any regard to what you and I would call 'the truth')? Those PA talking heads aren't evil or corrupt (in the narrow sense relating to the words leaving their mouths). They are simply acting according to cultural norms and values that you and I can't even begin to understand. I chose the example of the puzzle (specifically how the Arab man seemed to show no misgivings about how he had 'solved' it) as a 'safe' opportunity to examine this cultural disconnect. One of the biggest obstacles to the west ever having a meaningful dialog with the Arab world is that nobody dares examine this cultural disconnect or how to overcome it.
7. The young Arab man in my post may be a wonderful father and husband. He may give charity in his community and be extremely moderate in all his views. But he comes from a culture that assigns no shame to ignoring what westerners consider to be hard and fast rules... and in fact doesn't fully understand the western obsession with rules and 'fair play' at all. This really isn't about whether he is a good or bad player in the scenario. It is about the fact that he plays according to a completely different set of rules.
8. The post was meant to draw attention to the disconnect between two cultures... one that says such a 'solution' to the puzzle is cheating/shameful, and another which says that the the object is to complete the picture puzzle without rules or limitations. One is a process oriented solution and the other is a results oriented solution. The value is only what each culture assigns to it.
9. Regarding the 'instant gratification theory: I suspect that the sole gratification the young Arab man anticipated from the puzzle was it's completion. The very idea of taking satisfaction from the process probably didn't occur to him. I obviously am guessing here... and using only my own cultural tools to make that guess.
10. Regarding the assertion that the Arabs aren't "playing by accepted Western rules of cultural, governmental and economic normalcy": First, they are playing by rules... it's that they are rules that we don't fully understand (or perhaps are willfully ignoring). Second, why should the Arabs be expected to play by western rules? Who is to say that our rules are 'normal' or that they are universally 'accepted'? Perhaps, as many suggest, we should try dealing with them entirely according to their own rules.
OK, I've had my say. What I had hoped was that we could have a discussion of different rules and values to those rules. If it will help keep things calm, feel free to talk in terms of Klingons or Ferengi instead of Arabs or Muslims. It's enough to admit that their culture is foreign to us and that ours is foreign to them. Now what?
Can anyone take the issue of how to approach the cultural disconnect and discuss it outside the minefield of political correctness we've created for ourselves here in the Middle East?
Posted by David Bogner on August 28, 2006 | Permalink
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Comments
I guess I'd feel comforted if it was only our enemies who were focuesed on a "results oriented solution". We're really not better. Look at our politicians. Look at our labor unions. Look at our drivers.
I think that the focus on results, the lack of willingness to follow "rules" (which is a bigger deal than "lying" in the story you tell) is due to belonging to a society where you simply don't trust the rule-makers. The Arabs suffer a lack of democracy, and corruption is rampant. Why follow the rules?
The problem is that most Jews came from countries where they didn't trust the rulers either - Czarist and Soviet Russia, Nazi Germany, the Arab countries. So we're notorious rule breakers, and have romanticized it for the most part. We love stories like Entebbe, Osirak, Eli Cohen, because we did such a great job of breaking the rules that were unjust. I think to a large extent the frustration with the latest war is that we didn't break the rules enough. Had we succeeded in a daring mission that broke the rules, that would have been the Israel everybody would be proud of.
But that same rebellious spirit is our downfall on other fronts. We simply have not internalized that we have our own country, and we need to respect the rules - as individuals, and as groups. Stealing from the government is stealing from ourselves. Breaking traffic laws affects us - it's not some external law by a distant despot.
Until we start respecting the puzzle, and realizing that we have to follow the rules, we're not going to be much better than our adversaries.
Posted by: Dave (Balashon) | Aug 28, 2006 3:00:18 PM
David, I hope you'll forgive me for doing this, but it just has to be done:
"There's life there, Jim, but not as we know it."
There. Got that out of my system :)
Apart from that, um, yeah. What Dave (Balashon) said.
Posted by: Nominally Challenged | Aug 28, 2006 3:28:28 PM
Oh. I didn’t understand before, but now I get it.
You’re saying the Arabs are trying to give all of us testicular torsion.
Arm photon torpedos!!!
Posted by: Doctor Bean | Aug 28, 2006 4:32:01 PM
Just so that it is clear, I'll take Kirk over Picard.
Posted by: Jack | Aug 28, 2006 5:10:44 PM
1. I may have to call bullsh*t on your Trekkie denial. Even I don't know for sure which ones the Ferengis are. Are they the ones with the big ears?
2. Aren't you the one that doesn't like the way the press infantilizes the Palistinians? "They just don't understand our rules" is kind of along that same line of thought. (Which doesn't mean you aren't allowed to say it, of course.)
3. Another cultural thing. Partially off-topic, but I was thinking of it. And maybe this is just the media. When a loved one dies, every culture in the world cries into their hands, over the body, or on someone else's shoulder. Grief is private. Arabs wail and scream directly into the camera. It's very off-putting, and comes off as entirely fake. Do they really do that, or are those pictures just the ones that make the news?
4. Dr Crusher (Gates McFadden) was way prettier than Yar or Troi.
Posted by: Tanya | Aug 28, 2006 6:05:48 PM
...being rude and answering some of Tanya's questions (because i can get away with it... unless DB decides to delete my comment :-P)
The Ferengis are the ones with the big ears. Those big ears are also erogenous zones, in case you were wondering.
Every culture in the world does *not* produce grief on a purely private level. In older Jewish cultures, there were 'professional mourners' who would be hired for funerals specificly in order to make a big emotional public deal out of the fact that someone died.
Posted by: Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) | Aug 28, 2006 6:58:18 PM
I decided not to drag my four million line comment out any further, but since you bring it up...
I'm probably the least knowledgable here on ancient Jewish customs, but I'm pretty sure that was started by the Egyptians. I studied Egyptian Art and Architecture in college, and those paid mourner women, wailing and tearing their hair, are actually shown in ancient Egyptian heiroglyphics. I've often wondered if that was where the custom came from. If it's even really a custom, and not just a some publicity thing.
But just because they did it 5000 years ago, doesn't make it normal today. They also killed the wives, pets, and farm animals of their high-ranking officials, so they could be buried alongside.
Posted by: Tanya | Aug 28, 2006 7:32:30 PM
I have always maintained that Gene Rodenberry did great damage to western civilization putting the worst sort of liberal bilge into the minds of impressionable youth. Really good brainwashing. Galactic Federation indeed! We shall all die from cultural relativism. A disease the Arabs and Persians seem immune to.
At least the Ori and Wraith in Stargate are all bad all the time. So far.
Posted by: Scott | Aug 28, 2006 8:18:05 PM
I just read all the latest comments from yesterday. It's like swimming in warm partially congealed jello made with unmentionable liquids.
I think most of you people are suffering from the deepest sort of suicidal denial.
We are caught DIRECTLY between the rock and the hard place. No wiggle room. The more our cultures bullsh*t ourselves the worse its gonna get. Really I'd like to just throw up my hands and walk away from such monstrous foolishness but I can't. You are decent human beings. There is a roaring downhill out of controll freight train bearing down on you that you cannot or will not see ... and I can. I have to try.
We are NOT the Romans. We do NOT deserve to be wiped out by an inferior savage culture. We shall NOT be condemned by God or history or whatever adult you have as that voice in your head. We have the natural ... God ordained RIGHT to strike back with all ferocity at our disposal against these Muslim mad men.
The Host of Heaven can only look down on us now and wag their heads. Decent people choosing procrastination and suicide in the face of plain naked evil. Truly a mystery even Solomon could not have imagined.
Posted by: Scott | Aug 28, 2006 8:39:30 PM
I used to have a housemate who was a hardcore Trek fan and a political science grad student, and he claimed that the various factions on the different ST shows should be viewed this way:
Federation = NATO
Klingon = USSR (in the day)
Romulan = China
And, in one of the later series (Deep Space 9 I think?), Bajorans = Israelis
He also made me read the Dune series, in which jihad goes global and then intergalactic. I'm not entirely sure where Sting and the guy from Twin Peaks fit in, though.
Posted by: Kayla | Aug 28, 2006 9:08:07 PM
I saw great promise in the totally hot casting of the the Chief of Security (Tasha Yar, played by Denise Crosby)
Denise Crosby left (was asked to leave) the show because someone else saw how hot she was in a published photo shoot.
Posted by: Trekkie | Aug 28, 2006 9:24:25 PM
Tanya:
it could just be a general Middle Eastern custom.
or maybe Victorian culture removed it from Europe, and it used to be common there also.
Posted by: Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) | Aug 28, 2006 9:38:40 PM
Asn to the question:
Can anyone take the issue of how to approach the cultural disconnect and discuss it outside the minefield of political correctness we've created for ourselves here in the Middle East?
Maybe we could translate The Prince into Arabic and drop it on all of the villages. Somehow I don't think they'd read it and if they did I don't think they would care that we endevor to be morally superior, religion or not. Once we are dead and gone the problem has ended. As we all know the end justifies the means.
Posted by: Jeff | Aug 28, 2006 10:44:35 PM
Actually a fair number of Trek fans thought that the creative forces behind DS 9 were thinking Bajorans = palestinians, Cardassians = Israelis.
Posted by: Larry Lennhoff | Aug 28, 2006 11:41:06 PM
Star Trek aside (haven't watched a single episode), I have to say that I think it's quite the opposite, and the Arabs, having lived side by side with Israelis this long, are probably well aware of Western norms. Which Arabs, though? I'm pretty sure the *leadership* is well aware of these cultural norms/rules... I'm not sure about most of the populationg. I hate to bring up history of many Arab/Muslim cultures/empires, but one aspect that characterized them through the ages and that contributed to their eventual downfall was the denial of Western civilization's norms and developments. Of course, eventually, they did grow aware of what was happening, but it was too late... Today, the situation is that many leaders of various Arabs are well aware of the *weaknesses* of the Western societies, and are quite adept at manipulating them, while keeping much of the population relatively ignorant of the rest. This is terribly un-PC, but I can cite many of Bernard Lewis's books... and it does seem to make sense given what's actually happening.
Posted by: Irina | Aug 29, 2006 3:02:04 AM
Not a Trekkie? You sure know an awful lot of Trekkie terminology. Methinks the man doth protest too much...
I think the question really is how do you get two cultures who do not respect each other and are not interested in understanding each other to agree that the cultural gap is worth bridging...then you can start to try and formulate what to do about the gap...
Posted by: mcaryeh | Aug 29, 2006 9:15:48 AM
One observation hinted at in some of the other replies: the cultural norms and values of you, Zahava, me, and other Western Olim are themselves different from those of most other Israelis. Specifically regarding "gaming the system" or "tilting the pinball machine" - what is known in modern Hebrew as "shitat ha-matzliach".
I agree with Dave that this is largely a result of the political/cultural climate in which these people came up. In socialist Israel, the possibility of being played for a patsy - a "freier" - was very real, and had real consequences. Our underlying assumptions - of a basically fair and level playing field, and of unlimited resources and opportunities - simply did not hold in that Israel.
The ground rules were - and still are - very different.
As a fellow former Nordamericano, I have had some very eye-opening exchanges with my own children - who have been raised with the background static of multiple political manipulations by the judiciary and media. For us these are political talking points - events upon which we apply a previously formed definition of what should "really" be. For our kids, they ARE the template of reality: they don't have any countervailing experiences, nor can the second-hand rantings of a "greenhorn" parent supply that deficiency.
This is also a sticking point in discusssions with otherwise well-educated and worldly Israelis - at a certain point, they don't have your mind-map. And even if you describe the healthy political system you came from, their own experiences convince them that it's a pipe dream - or what is worse, that Americans are "freiers" and "squares" for maintaining such a system.
Posted by: Ben-David | Aug 29, 2006 3:05:14 PM
Dave... Ben David gives a more detailed variation on the same theme later. It is a point I hadn't really considered before. Thanks.
Nominally Challenged... Forgiveness granted. :-)
Doctor Bean... Exactly! :-)
Jack... If you mean that in a 'Ginger or Maryanne?' kinda way, I have to tell you I'm a bit uncomfortable with the direction you've taken this thread. :-)
Tanya... I had to do a lot of looking up on Wikipedia's Star Trek section to find all the right names and stuff. All I could remember were the Klingons and Romulans... and that the race of money-grubbing, back-stabbing liars had a name that sounded like a pasta dish. As to #2... I reserve the right to contradict myself on occasion. :-) And yes, Dr. Crusher was hot in a 'Mrs. Robinson' kinda way, but the name was totally off-putting.
Steg... Yeah, and notice how nobody protested the intentionally exhagerated features on the loathsome Star Trek races. that Gene Roddenberry was a genius!
Tanya... Which, if memory serves, gave rise to the famous Egyptian phrase: 'Who says you can't take it with you?'
Scott... Say what you want, but he took topics that nobody dared discuss and made them accessible. What the viewers did with those discussions is quite another thing. ON a side note... you are sounding apocalyptic again. While I can't/won't argue with your central premise (since I've told you on several occasions that I agree with you), I have to ask you to take off the sandwich boards and put down you 'The End Is Near' sign when you enter the premises.
Kayla... "I used to have a housemate who was a hardcore Trek fan and a political science grad student" - I'm guessing your relationship was a platonic one. :-)
Trekkie... And this was considered bad because...?
Jeff... They need no translation. I am starting to think Machiavelli plagiarized 'The Prince' from an as yet undiscovered Arabic manuscript.
Larry Lennhoff... And I'm guessing these discussions took place in someone's parent's basement. Sorry... couldn't resist. :-)
Irina... Proximity is not very effective against cultural inertia. I'm just saying...
mcaryeh... No argument from me (except about me being a trekkie).
Ben-David... That was one of your more cogent comments. It actually develops Dave's initial premise quite nicely. I honestly hadn't considered that aspect before you two commented. Well done.
Posted by: treppenwitz | Aug 29, 2006 4:54:11 PM
What a great thread! And not to overextend the metaphor, but some have argued that Star Trek's "Next Generation" also offered an analogue of the global jihadist movement (if you don't examine it too closely).
"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated."
Posted by: Lynn B. | Aug 29, 2006 5:28:14 PM
The pendulum swings, though---the 'cultural relativism' and 'multiculturalism rules!' mindset, however prominent in elite circles and upper socioeconomic social strata is starting to boomerang among the younger set, if conversations with my son's peers in California are any indication. There are still the True Believers, for whom extreme liberalism of the Left variety is their religious dogma which cannot be questioned by anyone, but there are a growing number of youngsters who look hard at the world today and question their parents' worldview. There are a growing number of Everyday Joes in the working world of the States who question the MSM and the elites it speaks for. This is why the newsroom of the New York Times can be shocked! just shocked! at the results of the last election....
As a die-hard Trekkie, I have to add that (1) I've been to dozens of Trek conventions and never met anyone who thought the Bajorans were Palestinians; and (2) the characters are a great short-cut to explaining the unexplainable...when my back-then much-younger son saw Nazis on television for the first time, he asked me what they were? "They're Borg, honey." He got it immediately.
Posted by: aliyah06 | Aug 29, 2006 5:29:12 PM
I grew up in El Paso - where the predominant culture was Mexican, but the dominant culture was American, so I became familiar with a similar cultural disconnect at a young age. On matters of simple protocol, one makes allowances. If your Mexican friend says, "I'll meet you here at 9:00 AM tomorrow," you understand that he means, "I'll meet you sometime in the morning, but no earlier than 9:00." There's no need to conclude that your friend is a pathological liar, or cronically late. He just means something different than what you hear.
But it's important that one distinguish cultural relativism from moral relativism.
For some cultures the rules of the Ten Commandments may be more negotiable than they are for us of Puritan descent (or of Talmudic tradition), but that is not to say that those who lack a clear understanding of the Eighth and Ninth Commandments suffer no harm from this cultural defect.
While what we understand as "lying" and "stealing" may be acceptable behavior in Arab/Muslim culture, there is dire consequence to the society that tolerates (or even promotes) such misconduct. The contrast in the relative prosperty of Israel and its neighbors is a case in point. And tragically for you Israelis, your Arab/Muslim neighbors (who are so cavalier about their observance of the Eighth and Ninth Commandments) seem equally unbothered by the Sixth - at least as far as it applies to their treatment of Jews.
So go ahead, be "liberal" in your understanding of other cultures - but you [the children of the blessing], of all people, shouldn't let your liberalism lead you into the false belief that no culture is morally inferior to any other (lest you violate the First and Second Commandments by bowing to the modern god of moral relativism).
Posted by: Bob | Aug 30, 2006 1:06:45 AM
what Bob said.
Posted by: ball-and-chain | Aug 30, 2006 5:46:08 AM
Jack... If you mean that in a 'Ginger or Maryanne?' kinda way, I have to tell you I'm a bit uncomfortable with the direction you've taken this thread. :-)
Remember, I already told you that I am a lesbian trapped in a man's body. Darn it, there we go taking this into all sorts of interesting places.
Allow me to curse in German, "Schnappi!"
Posted by: Jack | Aug 30, 2006 9:08:39 AM
We geeks in our house (bless the missus, who is worse than I) saw the modern Klingon (you know, from the first movie through the Next Gen series, natch) -- Muslim fascist connection a million parsecs off!
Q'a Plah!
Posted by: Wry Mouth | Aug 30, 2006 1:09:18 PM
Actually, I think the Bajorans are closer to catholics than Palestinians. And, yes, I'm a trekkie.
Posted by: Amanda Rush | Aug 30, 2006 9:49:10 PM
I could say so many things here, but I don't have time right now. I'm a die-hard trekkie (David--were you part of our little YU dorm mindnight Star Trek rite?), but even I wrote something recently about how Star Trek was responsible for so many people my age believing in moral relativism.
If only we talked with our adversaries, then there'd be no war, because even if we come from different parts of the galaxy, we all just want to live in peace...misunderstandings...blah blah blah.
What I will say is this: There's no question that the Bajorans were conceived as stand-ins for Palestinians. The episode which introduced them had the Enterprise responding to a Bajoran terrorist attack in which Federation citizens were killed, and the Bajorans chastizing the Feds for only caring about their suffereing in refugee camps when their own were injured.
Fine. Whatever. What pissed me off was then the obvious other side of the coin, in which the Cardassians must be the Israelis, and they are portrayed as evil imperialists with a vast empire that just won't allow the poor isolated Bajorans to have their one little planet to themselves.
The lack of a true parallel to the real-life situation was what made me mad. It's pure propaganda.
Posted by: psychotoddler | Aug 31, 2006 5:58:54 AM
I still have trouble seeing how far cultural understanding will get us if it clearly will never be reciprocated. Honestly, isn't that what we did in Oslo?
Also-
Those PA talking heads aren't evil or corrupt (in the narrow sense relating to the words leaving their mouths). They are simply acting according to cultural norms and values that you and I can't even begin to understand. I chose the example of the puzzle (specifically how the Arab man seemed to show no misgivings about how he had 'solved' it) as a 'safe' opportunity to examine this cultural disconnect. One of the biggest obstacles to the west ever having a meaningful dialog with the Arab world is that nobody dares examine this cultural disconnect or how to overcome it.
Are you saying that PA talking heads don't recognize murder when they see it? Isn't this infantalizing them , as Tanya or somebody else suggested?
Yes, they justify murder of Israeli civilians by calling us all occupiers and army reservists. But are you saying that we are supposed to be understanding of these kinds of statements because it is their cultural norm? Why is it wrong to call people who justify murder evil? You lost me here.
Posted by: abbi | Aug 31, 2006 2:26:35 PM












